I would say that by Kindred he was clearly a villain in that he was kidnapping innocent people to experiment on in an effort to both get revenge on Atlantis and also to dominate the galaxy. I'm trying to recall my feelings regarding him in Vengeance. I remember being appalled at his mad scientist schtick and when he left Teyla tied to a bed with a bug crawling up her - but I think in some ways I still felt that he was more an aggrieved party, because if I recall that's when he was talking about how he was neither fish nor fowl thanks to SGA's non-consensual experimentation on him. He was angry and lashing out, and certainly not using his scientific abilities in any good way, but... I don't remember if he was actually experimenting on innocent people or if he was experimenting in the lab and his creations got out and hurt people without his intent. If it's the former then I wouldn't consider him a villain, but I would consider him a bad guy because of how he treated Teyla if nothing else (and creating nasty monsters isn't high up on a good guy's list usually either). If he actually was experimenting on villagers, then I would say that's when he went over the deep end into villainy.
I think, for me, a villain is not just someone who harms other people but one who does so for personal profit or pleasure. At times, there are "good guys" who do bad things with good intentions and there are "bad guys" who accidentally do good things with bad intentions. A villain is someone who does bad things with the either the intent to harm or not caring if s/he does so because it is part of a larger plan. A villain is more than a misguided former victim, which kind of what I felt Michael still was in Vengeance, a villain is someone with a far reaching plan who knowingly implements it even though it hurts others. Maybe if Michael had contained his plans toward Atlantis only I would still have had sympathy for him because they really did destroy his life, but he knowingly killed millions of innocents with the Hoffan drug and kidnapped Teyla's people. That's where he went from bad guy to villain.
Star Trek is awesome! I waver between my love for DS9 and their complex stories and my love for classic Trek, with the cheesy sets and compellingly hopeful stories. After that comes TNG, Enterprise and Voyager (in that order). TNG I adored by the end, but had a lot of trouble getting into for the first couple of years, and Enterprise was ok the first half of the first season and then became actually good the last season or two. Voyager improved when Barbie of Borg showed up even though all my feminist instincts made me want to hurl things, but I never could get into it much because I thought it could be so much better then it was given they were off in the far reaches of space and had to make very hard decisions based on limited resources and information.
Sometimes you kind of want the good guys to make bad decisions and have to deal with the consequences because it's how they answer to their bad decisions that really shows their character. And it raises the point that even heroes aren't perfect, that flawed people can still be heroes even when they make mistakes, etc. That's where SGA has failed for the most part, unfortunately - too few consequences explored for SGA characterization.
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Date: 2008-11-08 11:58 pm (UTC)I would say that by Kindred he was clearly a villain in that he was kidnapping innocent people to experiment on in an effort to both get revenge on Atlantis and also to dominate the galaxy. I'm trying to recall my feelings regarding him in Vengeance. I remember being appalled at his mad scientist schtick and when he left Teyla tied to a bed with a bug crawling up her - but I think in some ways I still felt that he was more an aggrieved party, because if I recall that's when he was talking about how he was neither fish nor fowl thanks to SGA's non-consensual experimentation on him. He was angry and lashing out, and certainly not using his scientific abilities in any good way, but... I don't remember if he was actually experimenting on innocent people or if he was experimenting in the lab and his creations got out and hurt people without his intent. If it's the former then I wouldn't consider him a villain, but I would consider him a bad guy because of how he treated Teyla if nothing else (and creating nasty monsters isn't high up on a good guy's list usually either). If he actually was experimenting on villagers, then I would say that's when he went over the deep end into villainy.
I think, for me, a villain is not just someone who harms other people but one who does so for personal profit or pleasure. At times, there are "good guys" who do bad things with good intentions and there are "bad guys" who accidentally do good things with bad intentions. A villain is someone who does bad things with the either the intent to harm or not caring if s/he does so because it is part of a larger plan. A villain is more than a misguided former victim, which kind of what I felt Michael still was in Vengeance, a villain is someone with a far reaching plan who knowingly implements it even though it hurts others. Maybe if Michael had contained his plans toward Atlantis only I would still have had sympathy for him because they really did destroy his life, but he knowingly killed millions of innocents with the Hoffan drug and kidnapped Teyla's people. That's where he went from bad guy to villain.
Star Trek is awesome! I waver between my love for DS9 and their complex stories and my love for classic Trek, with the cheesy sets and compellingly hopeful stories. After that comes TNG, Enterprise and Voyager (in that order). TNG I adored by the end, but had a lot of trouble getting into for the first couple of years, and Enterprise was ok the first half of the first season and then became actually good the last season or two. Voyager improved when Barbie of Borg showed up even though all my feminist instincts made me want to hurl things, but I never could get into it much because I thought it could be so much better then it was given they were off in the far reaches of space and had to make very hard decisions based on limited resources and information.
Sometimes you kind of want the good guys to make bad decisions and have to deal with the consequences because it's how they answer to their bad decisions that really shows their character. And it raises the point that even heroes aren't perfect, that flawed people can still be heroes even when they make mistakes, etc. That's where SGA has failed for the most part, unfortunately - too few consequences explored for SGA characterization.